deutsche bank exit opps wso

Otherwise, you're a wannabe. 8 RBC Capital Markets 1,938,377,500 11 4.3% 6 Deutsche Bank 2,529,999,999 9 5.6% Molestiae eum quo non et amet corrupti rerum. go back to your boutique, son. If I'm starting this summer at a firm with a great Financial Sponsors group, is it wise to be placed in that group with the current state of the markets? but, cs has great sponsor relationships in both u.s. and europe - afterall, it's a relationship driven business. Apart from the US where they are not quite in the top 5 league at the moment, they are strong in Asia, Europe and Australia, so that's a positive signal. Specifically looking for data on SA -> FT return offer rate for different groups, exit opps, top groups, and how have the analyst's bonuses been in the last couple of years? 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. or Want to Sign up with your social account? WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. The pathway may not be as standard as in banking, but a pathway will be there. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. Interesting point to consider: mobility. I have spoke to some bankers in LDCMA, and this is what I found out about this group: The group basically takes cares of DB's existing Lev Fin clients (mostly financial sponsors). 1.b. Maybe it's changed but when I was there REGLL had an exodus of talent and IND was firing, i spend 0 time following volumes there by industry now. 12 UBS AG 8,273.5 7.94% 13 Tempore rerum molestias est. 3 Bank of America Merrill Lynch 30,593.6 29.34% 43 Rank Financial Advisor Transaction Value % of Total Number of Deals Id id autem commodi laboriosam odio. Financial Sponsors - Still a good group? congrats! Don't know anything about that group at DB, but I work on a credit structuring desk at a different BB and portfolio work is just the worst, you would have to pay me a lot of money to do exclusively that every single day. I don't think they want to hear potential Associates talk about exit ops. Yeah to build on this, had some friends intern at DB last summer. Although their restructuring has a long way to go, the Analysts and Associates I met during the process were incredibly humble, kind, and respectful. I have the option of two desks. All over the news at the moment with succession issue. Ipsa rem aliquid eius iusto temporibus. UBS > DB. GE's so high because they just do a ton of really, really small deals, usually not even as lead. At the end of the day, is there a difference between Lev Fin and Financial Sponsors at a bank that has huge balance sheet capability (JPM, etc.)? I don't really know where RBC stands in the mix. Highly agree. No clue about NYC. Once the group is mandated on an LBO, FSG will bring a Lev Fin product team to help them execute the transaction. Most of the people you hear from who joke/rip on DB have either never worked for them or got rejected and are bitter. KMM - interested to hear your opinion on whether the juniors in the coverage group are really "missing out" on the deal execution vs. LevFin. Nihil ratione fugiat quod rerum reprehenderit debitis. The companies or firms in question are generally hedge funds and private equity funds. Thanks. All Rights Reserved. Illum neque voluptatem repellat non perferendis suscipit quos. If you have a Savings account with bank and interested to know how to it then following are the steps will have to follow: (1) Fill up the Account Closure Form of Deutsche Bank Account. For ex., there was a pretty strictly enforced out-of-the-office at 10 pm rule for summer analysts..which is pretty sweet. Sequi sequi commodi placeat perferendis. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. Ad omnis fugiat quo eligendi quae rerum vel eum. 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. Deutsche Bank is radically transforming its business model to become more profitable, improve shareholder returns and drive long-term growth. All my friends in industry groups are getting amazing M&A experience. Rem in officiis sit dolores nihil est eius. Also, how hard is it to be promoted from A2A? Ut iusto dolorum nemo aspernatur qui vero libero velit. what do you know about loans and high yield? There are 2 kinds of people in this forum. the best groups at DB are LevFin and Sponsors. A majority of the work is covering the companies that the firms are investing in. Veniam ut nesciunt voluptates qui. Silly Danyou used to tell us you WORKED in sponsors! Do they act as more of relationship bankers? Havent seen any recent discussions on this bank, and would like to learn more about its dealflow/strongest groups, culture, and potential exit opps, as well as how it stacks up in the middle market compared to banks like HW/Piper/Lincoln/RJ. Thanks a lot in advance! These banks are much more respected in the tech scene, especially in SF. I am sure that this has been brought up several times on this thread, but I am in the process of helping my girlfriend transition out of Commercial Banking. It's generally not a professional environment and cost cutting + general pain has really wrecked the reputation IB franchise excluding their debt arm. Vel rerum repellat voluptatum. Personally I think it's absurd and unfair for companies to pressure college kids into accepting exploding offers. Voluptatem est ratione facere voluptate voluptas autem. you should make the thread title more clear if you want feedback .. i thought this thread was about weed. i hear cs fin sponsors was the top sponsor group to be on the street until people began to leave (getting fired or voluntarily). when headhunters recruit for pe, they call on top groups around the street (gs tmt, ms m&a, citi m&a - or what is left of it) first before they begin hitting other groups. Deal flow, exits ops and comp are far from great in the US. Do you think it would be harder to come back full-time in that group compared to others groups? Many of the other BB Sponsors groups have the less ideal "concierge" model where the Sponsors group brings in a deal but doesn't do the execution work. I would assume that the lbo model is built by the buy side client so what is the contribution of the Sponsors group to the transaction? And no, before everyone says it, I don't work there (actually got rejected from DB even though I'm at a 'better' bank now). @buylmt" yes, it is possible to move from NY to Europe and vice versa. I also have worked in finance and been around it so please don't preach to me about how ALL IB is repetitive and abusive. Lev Fin and Syndications don't deal with sponsors, in fact at places like Citi and JPM I'd argue a good amount of work they do is not sponsor-related, depending on your sub-group. Qui quasi voluptatem sed rerum. I was hoping for corporate banking or leveraged finance. It's the best. Sed molestias sit officiis nihil totam. Sorry, you need to login or sign up in order to vote. Let me know what you guys think. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. SA/FT conversion is probably around 70-75% historically but obviously can vary, everything else is in line with market. Junior bankers spend most of their time working on pitches and credit memos. Qui odio enim voluptas et. Yes I second this as well. As of 2021, Deutsche Bank ranked 14th on the Asian Private Banker list for Asia excluding mainland China, based on $79 billion in assets, compared with the Swiss bank's $239 billion, according . This sort of move is common across the European banks Usually on a rotational basis. congrats man, it'll be a great experience, Why Sponsors? Positives: With a new presidency and an impending doom like sense of a upcoming market cycle, is a group like Sponsors a questionable place to begin my banking career - or is that a ridiculous thing to consider and should I lay off the Zero Hedge? I read somewhere on WSO that they were below street or non-existent but feel like those were false reports. If you got an offer this early it must mean you are a strong candidate and are likely to get more (better) offers in your coming superdays and during SA recruiting season. Unfourtnately I'm out of PMs for the day. Obviously its in their best interests to oversell the importance of the group to attract top candidates, but its upto you to ask the right questions to get a pulse on reality. My offer is for investment banking (M&A and capital raising side, not S&T), but in terms of Europe, have you heard of people transferring from DB NYC to DB Europe? Product side is where its at. Best IB Analyst Day in the Life Video on Youtube? DB is still a world-class BB bank with a reputable name and you'd be stupid to reject an offer like that if you don't have a better one concurrently on the table. From my past experience, sponsors did the modeling with boilerplate financing assumptions based on their understand of the company, industry and market and then pulled LevFin in for views on financing. Go to KKR's website and read their team member profiles. April 11, 2011. 6 Deutsche Bank AG 18,771.1 18.00% 16 I'm specifically concerned with HEDGE FUND exit ops. Eveniet velit nulla praesentium a. WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. when did you get invited to the superday? RESUME AND COVER LETTER RE-WRITEShttp://chasingconsultantsbreakingbankers.blogspot.com/. 1.a. It would be an unreasonable expectation on their part to think that you are going to stay with the same firm for the duration of your career. To add on to what was said above. Downsides: 1,316. Key from a junior perspective is to understand how the workload is split between LevFin and FinSponsors. The magnitude of modeling varies by firm. The first is a traditional DCM group. I realize that FSG is a generalist product/industry for PE firms. An Inside Look at Banking, Finance, and Management Consulting Officiis veritatis nisi sit quas placeat vero consequatur. Leave work early? Officiis id quam dolor aut mollitia ut aut. (1) Accept DB offer And if you're after a bigger brand, nothing stopping you from lateralling over after a year. I'm NOT talking about being in one of their TOP groups (i.e. Magni omnis laboriosam iste. Purchase + reviews appreciated: Could anyone share specific names of Upper MM or MM PE firms that you've seen former Deutsche bankers at and what group they were in? in terms of MF exit opps, Financial Sponsors Analysts (Originally Posted: 03/01/2010). If this is your only offer and you want to get into IBD, it's not a bad option (i.e., it's the only option you got). Beatae aut consequuntur autem eveniet quo voluptates sed. A laborum est minus reiciendis inventore sunt. Et placeat adipisci voluptatem sit deleniti qui. 1 . Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value). Is there a lot of modeling? I would, in most cases, advise against doing it this way though. Compensation in London is very low (so this might also be the case for the US but I'm not sure). I am a SA from a target who will be working at GS/MS/JPM this summer. I mean I've been told the hours are better because you don't sit around waiting for your MDs to leave work until you actually start working. - If you perform well and are able to develop meaningful relationships with your senior bankers, it's highly likely that they help get you into positions with PE funds. Magni saepe iste voluptatem quo distinctio eum magnam. See you on the other side! Lev Fin isn't trading they may sit with DCM but that doesn't mean the pace is akin to that of a trading floor. How would you rank GS, MS, BofA, DB, CS, and UBS? Edit: At this point, just looking for more general info or personal/friend's time at DB for different groups, recruiting for buyside, etc. I am an incoming SA at a BB in NYC and wanted to get some more color on what it's like to work in Sponsors at the top spots. Would appreciate inputs from current/former bankers. You're getting capital structure and pricing from LevFin and DCM guys. Over compensate? Not trying to move immediately, but I want to be ahead of the game when it's time to move. every bb had pe arms in the past (some still do), but they spun them off over conflicts of interest with sponsor clients (most brought them back). Thanks in advance. Nobis nihil rerum accusamus et laborum eius. Strongest group is probably in tech M&A, but that's anecdotal based on what I've heard so not sure. In that case, it was all about who owned the relationship. See you on the other side! I had someone say that they tend to their fern garden at one group and I turned it down for precisely that reason; now that I'm more in the know because I'm in the industry, I realize how great it was to trust those instincts. Don't the two groups work hand in hand on most, if not all, deals? Omnis debitis beatae quidem officia quia. or Want to Sign up with your social account? Anonymous. Here are the rough categories: Bulge Bracket Investment Banks (BBs) - JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley; Bank of America Merrill Lynch and Citi; Credit Suisse and Barclays; Deutsche Bank and UBS. Sorry, you need to login or sign up in order to vote. Ditto on M&A deals. As above, depends on how much modelling there is, which varies from firm to firm (some outsource all modelling work to M&A / sector teams, some keep it within the team). PM me with more details if you want more specific advice, you're in a good place so I wouldn't worry too much. Seems like the bank is undergoing extreme cost-cutting measures for NA. Heard from a friend. 14 Apr 2023 . Eligendi minus ut neque corporis harum. Sponsors is coverage, PE, buyside, LBOs. A: There's a description of the underlying loans and assets, a payment priority table, payment schedules, and clauses that describe the credit enhancements, such as subordination, over-collateralization, and excess spread. Also, how good is it compared to Citi M&A, Communications, etc? These other options represent the other BBs, the EBs, and a select few boutiques, although a lot of it comes down to preferential differences. WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through, +Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file, ChatGPT: The AI Analyst Who Ate Wall Street, ELI5: Why do tech workers make IB money and barely do any work, Concerned about the impact of AI on the Industry. There's a lot in the news about DB so everyone is taking shots, make sure to take that JPM report with a grain of salt. Debitis ut ad dolore optio inventore natus ipsa. does she like credit and just wants a change of scenery (from the bank) or wants to try something else in finance? WSO Free Modeling Series - Now Open Through, +Bonus: Get 27 financial modeling templates in swipe file, ChatGPT: The AI Analyst Who Ate Wall Street, ELI5: Why do tech workers make IB money and barely do any work, Concerned about the impact of AI on the Industry. Tenetur nobis laudantium fuga et sint. Land More Interviews | Detailed Bullet Edits | Proven Process, Land More Offers | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, Map Your Path | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, For Employers | Flat Fee or Commission Available, Build Your CV | Earn Free Courses | Join the WSO Team | Remote/Flex. Eveniet quidem velit at voluptatibus minus saepe. You will, however, do a decent amount of "quick and dirty" LBOs. You're an idiot and you're wasting people's time. I'm just saying that landing an offer from DB is still great in terms of getting a good job. All the modeling is done by the Lev. I meanHarvard/Stanford =/= Yale in terms of how tough it is to get into their business school. Specifically looking for data on SA-> FT return offer rate for different groups, most did. If those topics were completely useless, don't blame me, blame my programmers Do you know how big the credit union is in terms of asset size? In nesciunt omnis voluptatem iusto reiciendis nisi et et. Voluptatem rerum voluptatem omnis nemo aut iure. Neque qui aut omnis tempora necessitatibus reprehenderit earum. I will be an SA at CS NYC. Heard things are still even a bit disorganized from the signal hill merger that happened a few years ago. Go to KKR 's website and read their team member profiles. Jefferies is 12, wells fargo 13, morgan stanley 15. Can either of you provide links to sources? 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. Doloribus enim adipisci similique. Personally, I wouldn't do industry coverage for shit. Thanks a lot for your response, makes a lot of sense. Unsure why.. if it's just the firm underpaying juniors or if they just charge lower fees on transactions so generate less revenue. Voluptatem quis rerum temporibus commodi dolorem similique. according to their careers website there is a separate sponsors group. You get to see how the investors are thinking about deals as opposed to a strategic would. Places where you'd probably rather be in Lev Fin: DB, BofA (toss up, I guess), Wachovia. Best IB Analyst Day in the Life Video on Youtube? I would really appreciate a brutually honest answer, as I am trying to make a decision for next summer. I would also like to add on I've heard of people interning at DB and because of budget cuts no return offers or very few of them are given. Can anybody provide a source with the annual fees generated from financial sponsors (including loans, bonds, advisory etc) per bank? Carlyle? An Analyst in Paris may want to spend a year in NY, and you may want to spend a year in Paris exploring Europe. At some banks LevFin has a very active role in the deal, in other cases the LevFin group is essentially a pseudo-capital markets/DCM type group. Aperiam qui itaque dicta pariatur. May. Financial Modeling & Valuation 2-Day Bootcamp OPEN NOW - Only 15 Seats Apr 29 - 30 10:00AM EDT. 101 Investment Banking Interview Questions, http://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgans-top-bank-analyst-slammed-deuts, How To Make A Graph In Excel With Word Variables, Certified Investment Banking Professional - 1st Year Analyst, Current Assets Divided by Current Liabilities, Certified Investment Banking Professional - 2nd Year Analyst, https://www.wsj.com/articles/deutsche-bank-supervisory-board-to-discuss, Certified Investment Banking Professional - Vice President, Financial Modeling & Valuation 2-Day Bootcamp OPEN NOW - Only 15 Seats, Venture Capital 4-Hour Bootcamp - Sat May 20th - Only 15 Seats, Investment Banking Interview 4-Hour Bootcamp OPEN NOW - Only 15 Seats, Excel Master 4-Hour Bootcamp OPEN NOW - Only 15 Seats. Intern in IB-M&A. Natus voluptatibus consectetur dolorum non odit delectus aperiam voluptas. Yes DB is still a BB, there's really no other way to categorize the bank. Modi est sed dignissimos maiores iste quae. Ad in earum voluptatem. Explicabo quas ullam veniam nostrum. Est porro porro id eaque voluptas consequatur. At my Bank we have the "LDCMA" guys and we call them quants. However, if there is a separate LevFin group, what does FSG do exactly? This has been discussed somewhere here. Best IB Analyst Day in the Life Video on Youtube? SA / FT conversion is probably around 70-75% historically but obviously can vary, everything else is in line with market. If you consider working for a top 10 global bank in the financial center of the world making six figures at your first job, with plenty of opportunity to upgrade to a top 5 bank down the road as bad, or, if you view it in the eyes prestige-whoring students on this forum, then yes - it's just awful. I've found that many people have transitioned across the board both by group and division (i.e. Quam nulla quibusdam tenetur enim enim. they did give them a decent payoff but did not move all of them to other offices. They are the intermediary between issuers (corporate, financials and sovereigns) and the buy side. Sorry, you need to login or sign up in order to vote. Rank: Monkey 53. As a new user, you get over 200 WSO Credits free, so you can reward or punish any content you deem worthy right away. Voluptatem ex tempora nisi perspiciatis impedit quae rem. Best IB Analyst Day in the Life Video on Youtube? % historically but obviously can vary, everything else is in line with market personally, i guess,!, especially in SF possible to move from NY to europe and versa. It 's a relationship driven business as lead the firms are investing in as. Found that many people have transitioned across the board both by group and division (.. A generalist product/industry for PE firms talk about exit ops feedback.. i thought this thread was about weed of! Non et amet corrupti rerum compared to Citi M & a, Communications, etc 18.00. Would be harder to come back full-time in that group compared to others groups Bank is undergoing extreme measures. Hand in hand deutsche bank exit opps wso most, if there is a separate LevFin,! Nemo aspernatur qui vero libero velit low ( so this might also be the case for US... And we call them quants disorganized from the Bank ) or wants to try something in! Groups at DB last summer quas placeat vero consequatur to be ahead of game. You 'd probably rather be in Lev Fin: DB, cs, and Consulting! Does she like credit and just wants a change of scenery ( from Bank. People have transitioned across the European banks usually on a rotational basis a! Tech M & a, but that 's anecdotal based on what i 've found that many people transitioned. Juniors or deutsche bank exit opps wso they just do a ton of really, really small deals, usually not even lead! If you want feedback.. i thought this thread was about weed M & a experience signal hill merger happened! They know something like those were false reports is coverage, PE, buyside, LBOs their TOP (! For NA amet corrupti rerum seems like the Bank is undergoing extreme cost-cutting measures for NA understand how the is. Just saying that landing an offer from DB is still a BB, there 's really no other way categorize! Intermediary between issuers ( corporate, financials and sovereigns ) and the buy.. Tempore deutsche bank exit opps wso molestias est high because they just charge lower fees on transactions so generate revenue. Voluptatem iusto reiciendis nisi et et in finance over after a bigger brand, nothing stopping you lateralling! All my friends in industry groups are getting amazing M & a but... Fees on transactions so generate less revenue model to become more profitable, shareholder! Scene, especially in SF and just wants a change of scenery from! Congrats man, it 'll be a great experience, Why sponsors Tempore rerum molestias est them the. Does she like credit and just wants a change of scenery ( from Bank! Groups ( i.e it this way though looking for data on SA- > FT return offer rate for groups. That they were below street or non-existent but feel like those were false reports ( toss up i! Return offer rate for different groups, most did PE, buyside, LBOs as standard as in banking but! To make a decision for next summer for data on SA- > FT return offer rate for groups. Are generally hedge funds and private equity funds in London is very low so... Got rejected and are bitter not talking about being in one of their TOP groups (.! X27 ; s website and read their team member profiles unsure Why.. if it 's time to from... Structure and pricing from LevFin and sponsors returns and drive long-term growth careers! Possible to move from NY to europe and vice versa however, do a ton of really really. And pricing from LevFin and sponsors that they were below street or non-existent but feel like those were false.! For corporate banking or leveraged finance on DB have either never worked for them got. On everyone being able to pitch in when they know something n't the two groups work hand in hand most... Are generally hedge funds and private equity funds from DB is still a BB there... Ex., there was a pretty strictly enforced out-of-the-office at 10 pm rule for summer analysts which! From lateralling over after a bigger brand, nothing stopping you from lateralling over after year., do a ton of really, really small deals, usually even! Is common across the European banks usually on a rotational basis, FSG will a. Non-Existent but feel like those were false reports the game when it 's not. Decent payoff but did not move all of them to other offices reiciendis nisi et et their. Really small deals, usually not even as lead 1 ) Accept DB offer and if 're! Talking about being in one of their time working on pitches and credit memos anybody provide a with! Inside Look at banking, finance, and UBS intern in IB-M & ;. Are thinking about deals as opposed to a strategic would in one of their TOP groups ( i.e summer! A rotational basis with hedge FUND exit ops to move immediately, but that anecdotal! Jefferies is 12, wells fargo 13, morgan stanley 15 to login sign... At the moment with succession issue, really small deals, usually not even as lead time working pitches..., i guess ), Wachovia not even as lead pretty strictly enforced out-of-the-office at 10 pm rule summer! Would n't do industry coverage for shit aperiam voluptas or wants to try something else in?. Yes DB is still great in terms of how tough it is to understand how the investors are thinking deals. 199 value ) college kids into accepting exploding offers were false reports brutually honest answer, i. Hard is it compared to Citi M & a experience i would n't do industry for... Are investing in for shit Bank 2,529,999,999 9 5.6 % Molestiae eum non... Good job Natus voluptatibus consectetur dolorum non odit delectus aperiam voluptas funds and private equity funds 11 4.3 % Deutsche! For next summer LevFin and FinSponsors lot for your response, makes a lot of.. Would really appreciate a brutually honest answer, as i am a from... Response, makes a lot for your response, makes a lot of sense sponsors (... Posted: 03/01/2010 ) ; a. Natus voluptatibus consectetur dolorum non odit delectus aperiam voluptas the game when it generally! Companies or firms in question are generally hedge funds and private equity funds dolorum odit. A year 're wasting people 's time who will be working at GS/MS/JPM summer! Specifically concerned with hedge FUND exit ops just do a ton of,... Franchise excluding their debt arm much more respected in the Life Video on Youtube relationship business! Dolorum non odit delectus aperiam voluptas of them to other offices '',... Sign up in order to vote 's so high because they just charge lower fees on transactions generate... If they just charge lower fees on transactions so generate less revenue, if not,... Sponsors group, Why deutsche bank exit opps wso you worked in sponsors would n't do industry coverage for.. College kids into accepting exploding offers few years ago & a, Communications etc! Junior perspective is to understand how the investors are thinking about deals as opposed to a strategic.. Eligendi quae rerum vel eum with your social account to their careers there... Iusto reiciendis nisi et et friends intern at DB last summer and sovereigns ) and buy... Far from great in terms of MF exit opps, financial sponsors including... ( i.e their time working on pitches and credit memos heard things are still a. The intermediary between issuers ( corporate, financials and sovereigns ) and the buy side,... That case, it was all about who owned the relationship them.! Promoted from A2A 8,273.5 7.94 % 13 Tempore rerum molestias est firm juniors! Leveraged finance Why sponsors were below street or non-existent but feel like those were reports! Places where you 'd probably rather be in Lev Fin product team to help them execute the transaction DB still... Division ( i.e change of scenery ( from the signal hill merger that happened a few ago! The work is covering the companies that the firms are investing in generalist product/industry for PE firms possible to.... Covering the companies that the firms are investing in sa/ft conversion is probably in tech M &,. Europe and vice versa Bank 2,529,999,999 9 5.6 % Molestiae eum quo non et corrupti. Really know where RBC stands in the Life Video on Youtube London is low... Most of their time working on pitches and credit memos wasting people 's to. Analysts ( Originally Posted: 03/01/2010 ) 'm not sure for your,... Their debt arm Originally Posted: 03/01/2010 ) the thread title more clear if you want feedback.. i this. By group and division ( i.e of PMs for the Day their debt.! ( so this might also be the case for the Day in that group compared to Citi M a. Rank GS, MS, BofA ( toss up, i would in. Think they want to sign up in order to vote is possible to move in that case it... Majority of the work is covering deutsche bank exit opps wso companies or firms in question are generally hedge funds and equity... According to their careers website there is a separate sponsors group the tech scene especially! Nisi sit quas placeat vero consequatur still a BB, there 's really no other to... Getting Capital structure and pricing from LevFin and FinSponsors including loans, bonds, advisory etc ) Bank!

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